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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:14 am 
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The Beneflops wrote:
Stutter wrote:
i.e. if the show/movie/whatever signposts the evil bad racists as evil and bad then that gets on my nerves, but if otherwise 'good' characters have views that we now consider outrageously bad, way beyond the overton window, but are perfectly standard for the setting, then imvho there can be an unsettling, exciting frisson to that

#notallracists

well e.g. the best thing abt the man in the high castle is obviously the likeable nazis

but if you think that means I like nazism then u r a dumdum imvho

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:13 pm 
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I mean unless you're saying "I'm glad a thing is telling us that likable people should go to hell" you're basically saying the best thing about the man in the high castle is, as a viewer, you get to be a nazi sympathizer.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:27 pm 
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I think he meant that it's entertaining and illuminating to have Nazis presented to us as realistic people who can be likable and sympathetic in many ways, while also being monstrous in their attitudes. If I think back across jerks, creeps and bastards I've known, most if them had many positive qualities, or at the very least an undeniable charisma, without which they would have been written off by everyone they met and wound-up completely alone. Plus there's that "banality of evil" thing Hannah Arendt pointed out, which notes that many people responsible for true terrible acts regarded those acts as necessary and largely unremarkable, or just a job or a part of life, and so the truly terrifying thought is not that there are ghoulish monsters out there masquerading as humans, but that it's within any human to became monster in some ways and an angel in others, so trying to fit people into neat categories of essentially "good" or "evil" and judge them accordingly is kind of a fool's errand.

It's something I think about a lot, because I think a lot of people who like to think of themselves as "good" are actually arseholes a lot of the time, but they have this binary set-up that gives a free pass to their behaviour because they've developed an arbitrary standard by which to judge others as "evil" and so validate themselves. So having evil characters also have many admirable qualities, or vice versa, creates a more complicated world view where a person has to question their own motives more intensely, since it's not enough to just go "Well I give to charity and I'm nice to old people, so I must be good" when Nazis are doing that, too.

Although probably people do watch things like this and draw conclusions like "Well slavery seemed bad, until that one guy was nice to his slaves, so obviously slavery is OK".

Oddly this reminds me of something Boorishly said once, ages ago, where he argued against attempts to humanise Hitler or other famous Real Life Supervillains, as he suggested it would lead to a slippery slope that could let people rationalise support for such people's positions, which is a point I kind of agree with. At the same time, though, I think it's necessary to engage with how people end up becoming monsters, because the flipside of that is people signing on to terrible enterprises, movements and such and ignoring any criticism of their actions on the grounds that outersiders do not or cannot understand. And also, as I'm sure a lot of people have experienced, debates which devolve into both sides attacking a series of strawman arguments instead of what's actually happening.

Like, I agree that Nazis are shitheads. I don't think calling anyone who expresses an extremely rightwing view a shithead, and refusing to engage with them, will ever reduce the likelihood of that person becoming a Nazi. If anything, all it achieves is a sense of moral superiority in the accuser, while the fledgling Nazi is further radicalised by what they see as a real world instance of the hatred and persecution which they already feel themselves to be subjected to. In the end, if what people are upset about is bigotry and hate politics, then it's necessary to stop using the existence of Nazis as a way to indulge in the same mindless hatred and vilification they celebrate, and attack the core problem of otheringabd fascism as a lynchpin of the human psyche.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:33 am 
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yeah, tom basically gets it and explains it better than I could possibly have been bothered to (esp excellent 2nd paragraph)

very little to add except that if yall want to watch yet another heavy-handed morality play abt how nazism/racism/sexism/whatever Is Bad for the 1000000000th time then yall can let's be friends of here with that boring-ass repetitious shit

like it's 2017 WE GOT THE MEMO THX

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:43 am 
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the nazis are back so clearly we haven't

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:44 am 
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I like to think that these sorts of things that have been happening are last-gasp death spasms as humanity enters a new era. Like, there are more vocal and affirmed Nazis, and fewer casual ones.

I'm not quite dumb enough to think they aren't worth worrying about, but I like to hope these are just growing pains (albeit of a horrific kind).

I mean, people have always found something to justify fucking one another over, and if I am perfectly honest I think the best we can hope for is a world in which people are forced to be open about why they are trying to fuck one another over, because at least then we will live in a work where zealots have no place, and we can all just admit that it's a grotesque power struggle and respond accordingly.

So j do think we are on the verge of a new, not necessarily less shit,era in which people will at least have to be more creative about devising excuses to fuck one another. I mean, there is gay marriage everywhere. If the Nazis are winning, explain that.

My bet is that we continue to victimise the poor as lazy and unworthy.

I have a very low opinion of humans, though, so if I woke tomorrow and found that Earth had decided the Sun was an Asian gay, and waged war on it, I would only be mildly surprised.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:50 am 
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There is another part of me that thinks humanity has just gone "fuck it" and decided to flush 100+ years of social progress down the toilet, but I remain optimistic on the grounds that history has shown people prefer a permissive environment.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Stutter wrote:
The Beneflops wrote:
Stutter wrote:
i.e. if the show/movie/whatever signposts the evil bad racists as evil and bad then that gets on my nerves, but if otherwise 'good' characters have views that we now consider outrageously bad, way beyond the overton window, but are perfectly standard for the setting, then imvho there can be an unsettling, exciting frisson to that

#notallracists

well e.g. the best thing abt the man in the high castle is obviously the likeable nazis

but if you think that means I like nazism then u r a dumdum imvho

I agree with this.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:08 pm 
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I’m tired of stubborn local sheriffs or alien commanders or whatever who only function to make things difficult for Scully or Picard on that particular week, but I’m more tired of police captains in cozy mysteries who resist the assistance of the same amateurs over and over and over again even when e.g. Father Brown has proven his usefulness and consistency beyond a doubt. I am not prepared to accept that every cop will reject that kind of results on principle. If you want, you can write in an actual reason for friction between your characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Just encountered two in the last couple days

1) Characters in movies who take the time to stop, turn around to their companions, and say something like "It's time to get out of here!" with great urgency because, like, the bridge is collapsing or the lava is about to reach them or whatever. But they AREN'T EVEN MOVING when they say it. They are literally standing still, on the edge of whatever is about to happen, taking the time to tell the other people with them that THEY BETTER HURRY UP BECAUSE DOOM IS IMMINENT. The girls were watching Alice Through the Looking Glass last night, and near the very end of the movie when EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING, Alice does this.

2) Windows. Windows that conveniently don't have screens, even in places where it's highly unlikely for homes not to have screens. Especially when only one window of the whole house doesn't have a screen. Also the continuity of this - in most episodes of that show, the window has a screen, but in one episode, the screen is missing for no stated reason but the screenless window is important to the plot. Windows that open and close super easily and stay open without being propped, even in houses that are supposed to be run down or older or haven't been used in a long time. Windows that are always perfectly clean.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:20 am 
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When a character does something embarrassing, and then like. Oh no!!! Someone filmed it and now it's on youtube (or "BlueTube" or whatever they are calling it) and it has 10,000,000 views!!!

Like every show wants to believe their character is so exceptional that the silly thing that happens to them will go viral.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:52 am 
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I mean, to be fair, the characters in movies are all played by intensely attractive and charismatic people who are getting paid millions of dollars to do dumb things on screen in our universe... so I dunno it's not THAT unbelievable that a non-famous Sandra Bullock or Kate Hudson falling down a flight of stairs could go viral in an alternate universe.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Cinema-adjacent peeve: The habit of movie posters/DVD+Blu-Ray covers/promo art putting pictures of actors in XYZ order and then putting their names in YXZ order above/below/beside them.

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 pm 
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I also find that really irritating, especially when it's actors I don't know by sight.
I bet the billing order is determined by contract negotiations etc, while the poster design is just by marketing people

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 Post subject: Re: Cinematic Pet Peeves
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:49 am 
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switch, jimmy smits

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